you and your troublesome hole
Dec. 6th, 2006 07:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
greygirlbeastPoking about the web yesterday, I came very unexpectedly upon a review of Silk and Murder of Angels at BlogCritics.org, the two books reviewed together. A right grand review, at that, which I'd never before seen, even though it was posted October 8th, 2004. Someone who — mostly — gets it, and the review is intelligent and insightful. Being described as "H.P. Lovecraft's spiritual granddaughter" made me smile for hours, even though I suspect I'd probably scare the bejesus out of poor old H. P. ("At least," says Spooky.) By the way, my offer of free signed copies of the tpb of Silk still stands for any new Sirenia Digest subscribers...by the way.
Today, I begin an experiment in which my usual morning post is replaced by an evening post. Here's the deal. There's so goddamn much work right now, the only hope I have of having time left to walk and exercise during the day is to bump the blog entry to the evening. And exercise I must. So, we'll see how this works out. But it's only temporary. I'm gonna go back to morning entries sometime this spring, at the very latest.
I wrote 1,188 words yesterday, and 1,341 today. Then Spooky and I spent the rest of the afternoon getting started on the proofreading of Low Red Moon for the mass-market paperback. We made it through the prologue and chapters One and Two. I had forgotten how much I love this book. At this point, it's my second favorite of my novels, after Daughter of Hounds. I do hope that this new edition (the third since 2003!), gives it another shot and a wider readership. Many typos and errors will be corrected in the text. Also today I dealt with the last bit of Tales from the Woeful Platypus, which is no longer mine to deal with. It's out of my hands now. Which is a relief. That's one thing off my plate.
In the comments to Tuesday's entry regarding my reworking of Wicca, my use of the Sindarin word sigil rather than the "traditional" athame for the black-handled ritual dagger, someone noted the parallel with the English word sigil and all its connotations (some of which I admit I find annoying, because of chaos magick's use of the word). Today, I recalled the name Sigel, which, despite spelling differences, is actually closer to a genuine homonym of the Sindarin sigil ("see-geel"). Sigel is the Old English incarnation of the Norse sun goddess Sól, which actually works out very nicely. I'm sure Tolkien must have been aware of this parallel.
Someone else asked what I thought would be left when I'd finished purging Wicca of all Gardner's Judeo-Xtian elements. Which is a good question. The answer is likely complex, though I might, for the time, say "Very little, I suspect." Indeed, so little will likely remain that I shall have to abandon the name Wicca in favour of something else. A lot of the elements in question are not only to be found in Wicca, but in NeoPaganism, in general. The pentagram or pentacle, for example. That's not a pagan symbol. Though it is not impossible to imagine that some Celtic or Norse or Eastern European architect or proto-mathematician might have stumbled upon this geometric configuration, it comes to Wicca directly from ceremonial magick, Freemasonry, the Order of the Golden Dawn, etc. Instead, I am employing a simple circle to define "sacred" ritual space. Many other basic elements of Wicca have already been discarded — calling to the four quarters, for example, another thing which Gardner borrowed from ceremonial magick. And the "Rede," which likely comes to Wicca via Aleister Crowley's formulation of the Laws of Thelema. The "Three Fold Law" seems more like a weird marriage of Buddhism and Xtianity than anything else, and is a concept which I find fundamentally absurd (for reasons discussed in earlier entries). Likewise, I have no use for Wicca's obsession with gender duality, which is, at best, dated and rendered irrelevant by transgenderism and over-population and a number of other things. At worst, it is sexist, homophobic, and skewed towards the cisgendered. The system which will work for me must regard gender not as a duality, but as a continuum.
So, as you can see, it looks less and less like Wicca all the time. I am keeping many of the ritual tools — the black-handled dagger (as mentioned above), the chalice (as it has mythic resonance beyond the Xtian "grail"), the cauldron, the broom, the altar stone, and so forth. In the end, this is about my belief that a) NeoPaganism should not be infused at every turn with Judeo-Xtian elements, b) that a Nature religion should be a Nature religion, reflecting the complexities of the natural world instead of outmoded human dualisms, and c) the belief that while a NeoPagan may reach back for myth and tradition and history, sheheit must also reach ahead. As I've said before, we need a paganism for the 21st Century, not the 17th or 5th.
We shall see where all this leads. Comments and feedback is welcome on all these points, by the way.
I'm still giving Heroes a chance. The last couple of episodes have hooked me again, as they have seemed less bland, less televisiony. Maybe I just have a crush on Hiro.
Oh! I almost forgot. I got Zoe, which pleases me immensely.
Today, I begin an experiment in which my usual morning post is replaced by an evening post. Here's the deal. There's so goddamn much work right now, the only hope I have of having time left to walk and exercise during the day is to bump the blog entry to the evening. And exercise I must. So, we'll see how this works out. But it's only temporary. I'm gonna go back to morning entries sometime this spring, at the very latest.
I wrote 1,188 words yesterday, and 1,341 today. Then Spooky and I spent the rest of the afternoon getting started on the proofreading of Low Red Moon for the mass-market paperback. We made it through the prologue and chapters One and Two. I had forgotten how much I love this book. At this point, it's my second favorite of my novels, after Daughter of Hounds. I do hope that this new edition (the third since 2003!), gives it another shot and a wider readership. Many typos and errors will be corrected in the text. Also today I dealt with the last bit of Tales from the Woeful Platypus, which is no longer mine to deal with. It's out of my hands now. Which is a relief. That's one thing off my plate.
In the comments to Tuesday's entry regarding my reworking of Wicca, my use of the Sindarin word sigil rather than the "traditional" athame for the black-handled ritual dagger, someone noted the parallel with the English word sigil and all its connotations (some of which I admit I find annoying, because of chaos magick's use of the word). Today, I recalled the name Sigel, which, despite spelling differences, is actually closer to a genuine homonym of the Sindarin sigil ("see-geel"). Sigel is the Old English incarnation of the Norse sun goddess Sól, which actually works out very nicely. I'm sure Tolkien must have been aware of this parallel.
Someone else asked what I thought would be left when I'd finished purging Wicca of all Gardner's Judeo-Xtian elements. Which is a good question. The answer is likely complex, though I might, for the time, say "Very little, I suspect." Indeed, so little will likely remain that I shall have to abandon the name Wicca in favour of something else. A lot of the elements in question are not only to be found in Wicca, but in NeoPaganism, in general. The pentagram or pentacle, for example. That's not a pagan symbol. Though it is not impossible to imagine that some Celtic or Norse or Eastern European architect or proto-mathematician might have stumbled upon this geometric configuration, it comes to Wicca directly from ceremonial magick, Freemasonry, the Order of the Golden Dawn, etc. Instead, I am employing a simple circle to define "sacred" ritual space. Many other basic elements of Wicca have already been discarded — calling to the four quarters, for example, another thing which Gardner borrowed from ceremonial magick. And the "Rede," which likely comes to Wicca via Aleister Crowley's formulation of the Laws of Thelema. The "Three Fold Law" seems more like a weird marriage of Buddhism and Xtianity than anything else, and is a concept which I find fundamentally absurd (for reasons discussed in earlier entries). Likewise, I have no use for Wicca's obsession with gender duality, which is, at best, dated and rendered irrelevant by transgenderism and over-population and a number of other things. At worst, it is sexist, homophobic, and skewed towards the cisgendered. The system which will work for me must regard gender not as a duality, but as a continuum.
So, as you can see, it looks less and less like Wicca all the time. I am keeping many of the ritual tools — the black-handled dagger (as mentioned above), the chalice (as it has mythic resonance beyond the Xtian "grail"), the cauldron, the broom, the altar stone, and so forth. In the end, this is about my belief that a) NeoPaganism should not be infused at every turn with Judeo-Xtian elements, b) that a Nature religion should be a Nature religion, reflecting the complexities of the natural world instead of outmoded human dualisms, and c) the belief that while a NeoPagan may reach back for myth and tradition and history, sheheit must also reach ahead. As I've said before, we need a paganism for the 21st Century, not the 17th or 5th.
We shall see where all this leads. Comments and feedback is welcome on all these points, by the way.
I'm still giving Heroes a chance. The last couple of episodes have hooked me again, as they have seemed less bland, less televisiony. Maybe I just have a crush on Hiro.
Oh! I almost forgot. I got Zoe, which pleases me immensely.
| What Firefly Character Are You? | |
  Zoe Alleyne Above all things, you're tough. You're also very private and prefer to keep your personal life just that. You know what to do to get the job done, and can always be counted on. You may not have much of sense of humor, but you're strong, reliable, and loyal. | |
| Take The Quiz Now! | Quizzes by myYearbook.com |
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no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 12:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 01:11 am (UTC)That's very nice, actually. I've never seen it before (and here I thought I'd seen them all).
It is mine
Date: 2006-12-08 07:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 01:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 01:24 am (UTC)Thankyouthankyouthankyou. Their insistence on female empowerment via empowering the traditional female roles and insisting that those stereotypes are something to find power in generally makes me want to bite things. Not that the other options seem much better, across the board, but I know of more exceptions to the rule, there.
I am...between labels, and kind of working on constructing my own way since I can't find any existing that I agree with or am comfortable within. It's a pain in the ass; good luck with yours.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 04:46 am (UTC)You're welcome, you're welcome, you're welcome!
It's too late to even get started on issues of female empowerment, gender roles, stereotypes, etc. I shall table that one for a later post.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-08 02:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 01:32 am (UTC)That worked nicely.
Thank you!
Date: 2006-12-07 02:33 am (UTC)If I can come up with something coherent I'll respond more. But it's final's week and my brain is somewhat fried.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 04:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 04:34 am (UTC)I've been enjoying it, honestly. It's far from the best or most innovative story in this genre (JMS' entries in the more typical medium spring to mind), but it's decently executed, and it's rather popular, which is a refreshing change. I'm used to genre shows like this lingering in the ratings gutter unless they pander to an almost parodical degree. (There's a reason I don't watch Smallville anymore.) I'm going to enjoy this moment in the sun while it lasts, until the show either gets arbitrarily cancelled or takes a flying leap over the shark.
On Wicca:
While your path seems to have little in common with my own, on most levels, I have to acknowledge some respect to anyone who is seeking to remove elements that are undesired, yet all too common in the modern, Western, non-Judeo-Christian religious world. In many alleged attempts at reconstruction in the world of my own faith, there is a frustrating level of foreign elements, ranging from not only Judeo-Christian and 19th/20th ritual magic (sometimes through the Wiccan/neo-Pagan influences) but also foreign pagan ideas, from Graeco-Roman and Celtic sources, most typically.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 12:37 pm (UTC)On the one hand, I have a lot of sympathy for attempts at reconstruction. I've felt that pull very strongly myself (as regards Celtic mysticism). On the other hand, true reconstruction is essentially impossible, as too much data has been lost, along with vital cultural context and mindset. And also there's that need I mentioned to reach forward as well as back. Recon trads too often seem more interested in nostalgia and escape than in trying to cope with present-day problems, most of which can only be effectively dealt with with present-day/future "tools."
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 04:47 pm (UTC)I'm interested in having the most thorough, historically accurate knowledge of my faith's own reality before the conversion of its original practitioners, but I fail to see why that obligates me to walk around in clothing that was fashionable in the 11th century, or extremely outdated battle garb, or to talk like a D&D character. I much prefer to approach it from a modern standpoint -- what does the lore have to teach us about today, and how can we live up to the ideals of the past without forgoing the cultural and intellectual growth of the more recent centuries.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 06:25 pm (UTC)I have so much empathy for this response. I love the concept of the Recon trads, but find the actual practice to be massively unsuited to my modern lifestyle. Combine this with the fact that while I might be mostly Germanic in background, I'm also a mutt - so what should I be Reconstructing? Combine all of this with the fact that I'm not living a rural, agrarian lifestyle and I have even more questions about what a Recon Trad would do for me.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 04:43 am (UTC)On a different note, re: Firefly - I got Inara, but only because I chose "12" (with relation to my typical blogging handle) instead of "23" (discordia). Swapping the numbers lands me with Jayne. Anyone's guess why that is.
you and your troublesome hole
Why do I feel like Spooky has somehow inspired this title? I know my "goddamned piehole" gets me into plenty of trouble.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 05:01 am (UTC)Because you are clearly a bright garda.
My question is (at this point) should you ever end up penning Post-Industrial Paganism, would you expect anyone else to adhere to it?
No. I would not expect it. I would, however, be pleased if they did, as one thing I feel I've lost is fellowship. The whole species of one, parahumanism thing was a logical, perhaps inevitable conclusion, as was the creation of my own path — after a long period of denial — but both have come at a high price, I feel.
Would it be a viable religious praxis for anyone other than oneself?
I can't yet answer that. Maybe I never will be able to answer that.
When does adaptation of an existing ethos become so distanced from the original source(s) as to become a distinct spiritual concept?
Well, if we restrict the question to Wicca, especially to contemporary American "white witch" fluffy bunny Wicca, I'd say that I've already passed that point. I've rejected the Rede and the Three-fold Law, both of which are held fairly dogmatically by "orthodox" covens (there's an oxymoron). I do not yet know what this new thing is, but I'm increasingly sure it won't be right to call it Wicca much longer. I could always plead schism and slap a branch label on it. I could stoke my ego and call it Kiernanian Wicca. I could call is Scientific Wicca. But in the end, all such lables are just a vain attempt to avoid the obvious fact that it is no longer the religion that Gerald Gardner invented and for which he tried to claim an ancient pedigree. I do not feel uncomfortbale, presently, calling it simply witchcraft (sensu lato).
The pull of fellowship is strong.
Date: 2006-12-07 06:09 am (UTC)Not that I've thought about this in awhile, but I suppose Witchcraft as a descriptor or title would work as well. But I think I'd end up having to explain myself more. That would give me a headache.
I really try to avoid headaches.
Usually without success.
Re: The pull of fellowship is strong.
Date: 2006-12-07 12:32 pm (UTC)I have difficulties with shaman. On the one hand, my own magickal studies began largely because of a number of unexpected (and still unexplained) experiences which I can only describe as shamanistic. On the other had, I think that the word has been hopeless divided from any meaningful cultural context by New Agers. I don't think one should call oneself a shaman unless the background is there, the infrastructure that comes from a long tribal tradition which not only recognizes shamans, but knows how to train and care for them. I'm very skittish about the appropriation of indigenous culture by "outsiders." Of cousre, these are my problems, and I do not even know in what sense you mean shaman.
Re: The pull of fellowship is strong.
Date: 2006-12-07 04:49 pm (UTC)Re: The pull of fellowship is strong.
Date: 2006-12-07 05:58 pm (UTC)My own history also has a definitine shamanistic characteristics and markers. My own mentor taught me in a specifically shamanistic path (as he had been). His teacher(s) emphasized not only the practical but a clear understanding of the wider context for shamanistic practice. The first thing he required me to study was Eliade's Shamanism. From that there was great deal of discussion about the context of shamanistic practice in a modern, non-tribal society. There are many ways in which spirit-work, soul-healing, and trance can be and has been "hidden in plain sight."
My own community-of-practice, as it has evolved over the years, is the Altsex community (LGBT, BDSM, Poly, etc). In recent years, there's also been a growing awareness of sacred BDSM in NeoPagan contexts - see Raven Kaldera's work on the Ordeal Path or his book Dark Moon Rising for most recent and best treatment of it. And the role of what we now call BDSM or Body Modification in spiritual practice is very well documented - and getting more acceptance.
Rather than shaman I would use the term hierus - it fits better due to it's association with sacrifice and ritual.
Nomenclature
Date: 2006-12-07 05:01 pm (UTC)Yet, I find it odd that one could apply the term "witchcraft" to a practice which assumes itself to be supernaturally impuissant. There is a respect for nature, for the variated macrocosm, and an acknowledgement of the unknown and the tacit realities which are not immediately accessible by temporal, human knowledge & consciousness. But outside of the ritual tools, the kernel of form adapted from "traditional" Wiccan or pagan ceremony, and a worship decentralized from any particular ego/personage/deity - how much does it have in common with "witchcraft"?
Purely from the opinion of an unqualified observer, I think you could probably dismiss the term (and its familial factions and schisms) entirely. Not that I have a handy, sound-bite worthy alternative to suggest. Pancosmic Beatificist? Metamillennial Heathen? Eremitical Ecstatic/chthonicist? Esoteric Meta-terrestrialism? Those took me forty five minutes to approximate.
I like "metamillennial heathen" as a title (rather than a movement or religion) if only for the conventional division from non-Judo/Xtain/Islamic traditions, and the possibility of transcendent chronology.
Would it be a viable religious praxis for anyone other than oneself?
I can't yet answer that. Maybe I never will be able to answer that.
Don't sweat it. A lot of those questions were rhetorical. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic with an "infidel".
Re: Nomenclature
Date: 2006-12-07 10:17 pm (UTC)This is filled with subtlties of meaning. With subtlties, period. I'm not sure I can be sufficiently articulate just now. And it could occupy a post all its own, a suitable attempt at an answer. One can go on and on about the etymology of the word witch (and synonyms in other languages).
There is a respect for nature, for the variated macrocosm, and an acknowledgement of the unknown and the tacit realities which are not immediately accessible by temporal, human knowledge & consciousness. But outside of the ritual tools, the kernel of form adapted from "traditional" Wiccan or pagan ceremony, and a worship decentralized from any particular ego/personage/deity - how much does it have in common with "witchcraft"?
There may not be more. Yet there may. But regardless, I think your confusion at my preference for the word may arise, in part, from misconceptions, some of them popular, some perpetuated by Wiccans and practicioners of other sorts of witchcraft, some of who with to be seen as the One True Path. But, on the other hand, I know there are many who self identify as witch who are rationalists, atheists, scientists, loathers of superstition and self-delusion and dogma. I am keeping something more than those tools, I think. I'll get back to this later.
I like "metamillennial heathen" as a title
Sadly, for me the word heathen is forever tainted and ruined by personal experiences with racist Odinists, as well as by certain followers of Asatru who have also embraced racism and homophobia. They wish to distinguish themselves from pagans, and so have chosen the word heathen. Some days, I want to create to proclaim myself an Odinist, just to frell with them.
Esoteric Meta-terrestrialism?
I kind of like that one.
I know I'm not making a lot of sense right now. I know. But there is a metaphysics in my work. There is not much faith or belief, and I will have nothing whatsoever to do with superstition, nor with theism or polytheism (beyond its use as metaphor and symbol). But there is a something I'm trying to reach, whether it lies within me or without.
One day, it will all make sense...
Re: Nomenclature
Date: 2006-12-08 04:39 am (UTC)On the first part of this, I am curious. I don't know if this is something that needs to be expounded in a journal entry - although there may be others reading who (like myself) are not well educated & might benefit from some clarification. On the second, concerning misconceptions, I will unreservedly concede that my conception of "witchcraft" has very likely been influenced by those sources.
Sadly, for me the word heathen is forever tainted and ruined by personal experiences with racist Odinists, as well as by certain followers of Asatru who have also embraced racism and homophobia. They wish to distinguish themselves from pagans, and so have chosen the word heathen.
Well, I was thinking strictly from the idea of "one who lives on the heath", with more of an emphasis on one who lives of the land, rather than someone in opposition to organized Judeo-Christian religion. But yes, I had forgotten about that regrettable appropriation and the stigma such a term might carry. Fuckers. I say take the term back for yourself.
Esoteric Meta-terrestrialism?
I kind of like that one.
Go for it.
But there is a metaphysics in my work. There is not much faith or belief, and I will have nothing whatsoever to do with superstition, nor with theism or polytheism (beyond its use as metaphor and symbol).
But isn't there a dialogue between the exterior/third-entity metaphysical and the interior/first-entity metaphysical? Erg. I think I'd have to have at least three drinks in me before I could stumble further into this. I think I'm skittering on glass as it is.
But there is a something I'm trying to reach, whether it lies within me or without.
I was just listening to The Crane Wife while I was reading this and found this to resonate somehow...
...And it called & cried
It called & cried so
But all the stars were crashing 'round
As I laid eyes on what I found...
Keep reaching. I'll just marvel that someone manages the strength to try.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 05:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 05:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 12:05 pm (UTC)Whoa. No kidding?
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 08:07 am (UTC)(Whenever I see your Fran icons, my brain connects it to "Rabid Child" by They Might Be Giants, and I keep thinking "hammer down, rabbit ears...")
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 12:24 pm (UTC)(Whenever I see your Fran icons, my brain connects it to "Rabid Child" by They Might Be Giants, and I keep thinking "hammer down, rabbit ears...")
*snork*
Low Red Moon is my favorite of your novels. It's difficult for me, because of personal associations, but it's so goddamn beautiful I can't not read it. The "Epilogue" in particular is perfection.
Thank you. I think it was my "turning point" novel, in more ways than one.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 10:18 am (UTC)I hope it does too. I still don't get why this book was so criminally overlooked (in terms of sales at least). It's my favourite, absolute favourite, I'd like to see it do well...
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 12:27 pm (UTC)Well, in part, it followed from my then-editor's failure to send out any significant number of ARCs. There was virtually no publicity. Even less than usual. I have a new editor now, and hopefully things will go better with Daughter of Hounds.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 12:40 pm (UTC)I really liked that last episode. Everyone was behaving like people again.
I've gotten a lot more patience for the series since I started looking into how varied the writers are in terms of their backgrounds. It seems to me that there's a variety of art philosophies competing (or, the Jessica side of me says, good writers competing with crap writers).
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 04:42 pm (UTC)coins. It's not common but not rare either.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 04:57 pm (UTC)Certainly the Greeks used the pentagram, in various ways, but, regarding the appearance of the symbol on Celtic coins, I quote Glyn Davies from A History of Money from Ancient Times to the Present Day (3rd ed. Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 2002):
The earliest Celtic coins found in Britain "were of pure gold, being direct imitations of the gold stater of Philip II of Macedon...the spread of knowledge of such coinage is...generally held to be the result of migration and in particular the use of Celtic mercenaries by Philip and Alexander."
Hence, we see the Celts appropriating the symbol from foreign cultures, and because it was already associated with coinage.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 07:10 pm (UTC)imports of the first generation of Celtic coinage
and imitative of Greek Coins (and extremely rare finds in Britain)
Most of those types (imitations of the Philip stater) circulated on the continent and were melted down for second generation designs which became increasingly native celtic only using the Greek origins as a starting point.
Celtic art was very unlike Greek or Roman, it used a lot of symbolism and was *not* a debased form of Greek art.
By 150 BCE the Gallo-Belgic Gold stater series were
common in Britain and were almost totally celtic in design and meaning.
The bust of Apollo morphing in a celtic goddess...
The first native celtic coinage in Britain (about 75 BCE) derived from several sources (Gallo-Belgic/Armorican and the gold staters of North Central Gaul)
but again were pure celtic in design and symbolism.
Celtic dream and religious imagery was common in the complex designs and had very definite associations and meanings which are just now being deciphered (or guessed at ;)
Later designs of the central tribes in power just north and south of the Thames there became increasingly Romanized but the tribes around them, the Iceni for example, resisted these changes.
In Gaul before the invasions of Caesar several tribes used the pentacle
in association with a stylized bird (possibly a wren) on the reverses
on a long series of issues.
Take a look at some good photos of the gold staters of the Parisii, esp the hanging tapestry reverses, nothing like them in Greek or Roman Coins.
Same with the wild imagery of the Armorican peninsula, The Coriosolites, Nantes, Venetii, etc...
http://www.writer2001.com/exp0002.htm
for a start.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 07:18 pm (UTC)in association with a stylized bird (possibly a wren) on the reverses
on a long series of issues.
Even if this is so, what evidence exists that Celtic religious practices ever incorporated the penatcle in any way. Regardless, it appears in Wicca only because Gardner appropriated it directly from numerous European cermonial magicians, not from ancient Celtic sources.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 07:59 pm (UTC)was rarely just idle decoration though it was used in decorative ways, often both subtle and balanced in composition, more so in Britain.
That was just an example of its use on celtic coins (and i've seen dozens of the coins in question)
I doubt it had anything to do with witchcraft...
Gardner borrowed *everything* from everywhere in his version of "witchcraft"
My answer was a defense of celtic art, esp on the later coinage, *still*
being seen as only borrowing from greek art in debased form in some circles,
even this late, (the book you quoted... in 2002 yet, raised my hackles) despite massive studies*** showing it was a unique art form, not easily understood by people mostly familiar with only ancient greek and roman art on coins.
The viewpoint of Celtic art as debased Greek art is very outdated now with all the numismatic and other research that's been done.
***Borrow a copy of Coins and Power in Late Iron Age Britain by
John Creighton, Cambridge University Press, 2000
for just one book which studies these issues on celtic coin art.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 08:10 pm (UTC)Apologies. It was honestly never my intention here to demonstrate that Celtic art was a "debased" form of any other culture's art. But often, I do things without meaning to. Though I have still not seen evidence that the Celts themselves arrived at the pentacle independantly, it is not difficult to imagine them having done so (I think I said that way back at the start). For my purposes, however, what is relevant here is the mistaken belief that the inclusion of that symbol in various forms of neopaganism and modern witchcraft reflects a demonstrable, historically accurate understanding of ancient Celtic religious practice. To my knowledge, it does not.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 08:44 pm (UTC)apples and oranges here.
It was that quote from that book that set me off. Sorry about that.
I've collected and studied ancient greek, roman, asian and celtic coins (before the prices tripled out of reach and i had to sell off most of them ;)
By study i mean everything associated with them, the culture, art, history, meaning, etc. I always want to know why a particular ancient
coin was issued and what the imagery meant to the people who issued it as well as the people who used it.
No one alive today knows why the pentacle appears on the coins
so it's no proof that it was ever used in any celtic religious or
magical practices.
There's plenty of recognizable imagery on celtic coins that can be
connected to their myths/religion and magical practices but the
pentacle is not one of them so far as i know.
It's just there on some coins (shrug) for some reason. The tribes that used it in their coin designs didn't include any visual refs to any greek coin types that used it.
no subject
Date: 2006-12-07 09:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-08 11:08 pm (UTC)Do your explorations come from a wanting to explain why we're here, elevate your senses/being, or somewhere else?
I have been comforted greatly in the past two years by adapting a bit of your view that at least humans are insignificant in the universe and the grander scheme of things (but I suppose, then, even "scheme" is inaccurate).
Is it that you have found there are things that science cannot explain? And if science were someday able to explain these things (ghosts truly being temporal phenomena, for example) would that change your developing belief system at all? Can it be called a belief system? Too many questions, I'm sorry-maybe I've just missed something here but I'm so curious about this.