"With water surrounding me, high and wide open..."

[greygirlbeast]

Yesterday, I wrote 1,296 words on Chapter Five of Blood Oranges, which puts the word bank at 801 words. Today, with luck and determination, I'll find the chapter's end. But there need to be many fewer distractions today than there were yesterday.

The weather today is warm and damp, with more rain on the way.

readingthedark arrived early in the evening, and the three of us had dinner at Trinity Brew House. I had a very raw hamburger, a thing I was greatly desiring. Back home, there was an hour or so of conversation. Not nearly enough. But sex and tentacles, that came up, the octopoid bauplan as an eight-penised vagina, something of the sort. Prehensile penes, at that. But also cats, shaved heads, energy drinks, open sims, polygon mesh vertices, and book trailers.

I wasn't able to get to sleep until after five-fifteen ayem. The sky was going grey and lavender.

---

Back on the 7th, both hollyblack and matociquala wrote rather good entries on the "Mary Sue" problem. The misapplication of the term to fiction that isn't fanfic, and other deeper problems with a very problematic phrase and a concept fraught with problems. You can read Holly's post here, and Elizabeth's here. I found myself agreeing with most of what was said in both, which was hardly a surprise.

My only significant quibble would be with Holly's list of what is used to identify a "Mary Sue." Read it for yourself (don't be a lazy bastard), but it basically comes down to one word that repeatedly appears in her list: unrelatable. For example:

The reviewer believes that the female protagonist of the novel is so perfect as to be unrelatable.

The difficulty I have here may only be one of personal habit and preference. I don't see fiction as something I do expecting people to relate to any character. I only expect readers to read and consider and experience the story, to have individual reactions to the various characters, and to draw whatever conclusions they may. I'm most emphatically not doing something in order for people who don't write stories to project themselves onto. So, to me, whether or not a reader can relate is immaterial. I don't see the ability to relate to a character as a prerequisite for, say, sympathizing or empathizing with a character. Otherwise, yep. Brilliant posts, and thank you.

Oh, this bit from matociquala, which was basically a quick summation of Holly's quote for those too lazy to follow a link: "It's frankly misogynistic to identify a competent female protagonist as a 'Mary Sue' because she's at the center of her story. She's at the center of her story because she's the goddamn protagonist."

For my part, I continue to maintain the term will never have any authentic utility beyond fanfic, and even then...okay, not going to beat dead horses today. It only attracts flies.

A Bit Player,
Aunt Beast

Comments

[cucumberseed.livejournal.com]

"It's frankly misogynistic to identify a competent female protagonist as a 'Mary Sue' because she's at the center of her story. She's at the center of her story because she's the goddamn protagonist."

...

I don't see the ability to relate to a character as a prerequisite for, say, sympathizing or empathizing with a character.

PREACH.

Thanks for pointing these out. I'll go read and probably have more to say on this topic.

[greygirlbeast.livejournal.com]

Thanks for pointing these out.

You're very welcome.

[cucumberseed.livejournal.com]

Turns out, in aggregate, all that I would have said has been said already. I will nod along and think on it.

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

I like your icon. And speaking of both tentacles and failures to drown, have you seen the new Plaid video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNf5Ga1rw78)?

[greygirlbeast.livejournal.com]

I hadn't. Wow.

[lois2037.livejournal.com]

"I don't see fiction as something I do expecting people to relate to any character. I only expect readers to read and consider and experience the story, to have individual reactions to the various characters, and to draw whatever conclusions they may. I'm most emphatically not doing something in order for people who don't write stories to project themselves onto. So, to me, whether or not a reader can relate is immaterial. I don't see the ability to relate to a character as a prerequisite for, say, sympathizing or empathizing with a character."

YES! If I've read the story, I've more or less become part of it for that time. I don't think, "Hmmmm... I'm not relating to this character." or, "My! I certainly identify with this character." As a reader, I want the story to carry me along with it. When it's a well written story, I believe in the characters and their world, and really, that's all I ask.

[greygirlbeast.livejournal.com]

If I've read the story, I've more or less become part of it for that time. I don't think, "Hmmmm... I'm not relating to this character." or, "My! I certainly identify with this character."

I find this a very juvenile approach to fiction, one most people grow out of eventually.

[lois2037.livejournal.com]

A lot of reviewers never seem to.

marysue

[waristerrorism.livejournal.com]

I heard the term used for romance stories, as a fantasy version of the author. We all want to be Mary Sue, but secretly think we are more "special." Well, how'd she get her name?

Re: marysue

[greygirlbeast.livejournal.com]

It is common for authors to write fantasy versions, or-not-so fantasy versions, of themselves. Sarah Crowe was certainly me, as is Imp, but I hope to fuck no one is ignorant enough to see them as wish fulfillment.

[robyn-ma.livejournal.com]

There are also male Mary Sues, known as Marty Stu, Gary Stu, etc. — in answer to their charge that 'Mary Sue' is a misogynist term.

I look at 'Mary Sue' the same way I look at 'manipulative.' See, 'manipulative' when applied to a critique sounds false because, at their core, all creative acts seek to manipulate one way or another; you manipulate words to create an effect, or because they please you when arranged just so, or whatever. What reviewers mean, I think, when they call something 'manipulative' is that they feel manipulated — pushed inelegantly into some emotional response or another. It's that subjective line past which a reader/viewer/listener/whatever says 'Oh, give me a fucking break!' Y'know, poor Little Nell, her dog exploded and the explosion severed one of her legs, but in the end the kindly millionaire adopted her, etc.

Similarly, 'Mary Sue' would seem to be (ideally) reserved for those times when a r/v/l/w is subjected to a protagonist SO AMAZINGLY AWESOME AND FLAWLESS (or the few flaws they have are cute) that they just say 'Gimme a fuckin' break' and fling the book/movie/CD/whatever across the room. Many have identified Bella in the Twilight series as such a protagonist; others point to what Laurell Hamilton has allowed Anita Blake to become. On the Marty Stu tip, we can point to any number of action-thriller potboilers.

It's subjective, as all critical response is, and not really built for logical scrutiny.

[sovay]

Back home, there was an hour or so of conversation. Not nearly enough. But sex and tentacles, that came up, the octopoid bauplan as an eight-penised vagina, something of the sort. Prehensile penes, at that.

. . . I am sad to have missed this conversation.

[ulffriend.livejournal.com]

Life, as it plays out day to day, isn't limited to interacting only with people that one "relates to", especially if sympathizing or empathizing is required. Why in the world should it be expected that we relate to the people that we meet on the page of a book any more than we relate to the people that we meet in the local book shop?

I'd much rather a character be believable than relatable.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

I still say the main criterion for the Mary Sue label is the perception of illegitimacy in a character. Thus: original characters in fanfic; female heroes in patriarchal ideology (in the readers), authorial self-inserts in stories sold to other people, etc. The more they seem like a cuckoo, the more readers will react against them, and the criteria they'll cite for disliking them will reveal their ideas about what's acceptable, what's legitimate in a character (and illuminate all the politics that entails).