greygirlbeast | Platypus Vs. Mechaplatypus!

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Platypus Vs. Mechaplatypus!

Overcast and dreary here in Providence.

Another very good writing day yesterday. I did 1,670 words on The Drowning Girl. Keeping this book's voice on course is a matter of always having to remind myself that I'm writing a book by a schizophrenic, not a book about a schizophrenic. At any rate, the Word Bank grows.

Nothing spectacular about yesterday. It was just a decent day, and those are always welcome. We lit the fireplace for the first time this year. There was a problem with the oven not lightning, but the repair guy came and fixed it. Spooky made corn muffins to go with the second night of chicken and andouille stew. Lately, I love days strewn with mundane events.

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Before anyone else gets this wrong, I need to clarify the matter about Rhode Island electing its first independent governor. Lincoln D. Chafee is not a Libertarian, sensu the Libertarian Party. He is a civil libertarian, but that's another thing altogether. I would imagine he's many of the things Libertarians hate. For instance, he opposes eliminating the federal estate tax and, on November 17, 2005, was the only Republican to vote in favor of reinstating the top federal income tax rate of 39.6% on upper-income payers. Moreover, I am not a Libertarian. Moreover, I detest the Libertarian Party and have since college. Were I to categorize myself politically, I'd probably say I'm a far-left leaning Democrat. So, hope we're all clear on that now.

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I've been playing lots of City of Heroes and Villains lately. Too much really, which is what happens when I'm having too much fun. I'm not so much crazy about the game part of the game, which I find clunky and unnecessarily tedious. What I love is the huge pool of actual roleplayers who know how to, you know, roleplay. But there is one thing that's begun to wear on me, and it came up again last night, for about the umpteenth time (LJ can spell "umpteenth," but not "LJ"?). When I created my character, I wrote some very particular Lovecraftian stuff into her background. What I did not realize was how much CoX players rely on the "Call of Cthlhu" rpg for their understanding of Lovecraft, rather than relying on Lovecraft's actual writing.

The problem with this is that the rpg is drawn from the "Mythos" invented by August Derleth, and not from HPL. Yes, Derleth likely saved Lovecraft from oblivion, but in the process he managed to mangle the basic Cosmicism if HPL's work. I'm not going into all the whys and wherefores right now, though I'm thinking of devoting a post to it later on. I would refer people to Richard L. Tierney's essay, "The Derleth Mythos," only it's pretty much impossible to find****. I'd refer people to S.T. Joshi's The Rise and Fall of the Cthulhu Mythos, only few people are going to take the time to read what is, essentially, an entire book on the problem of what Lovecraft actually wrote vs. how Derleth rewrote Lovecraft, and how it's the revisionist stuff that has embedded itself so deeply in pop culture (including the "Call of Cthulhu" rpg).

But no, you cannot ward off Nyarlathotep with an elder sign, any more than you can fend off a cometary impact with a Hostess Twinkie. No, elder signs are not like Raid to the Old Ones. No, the Lovecraft Mythos (as opposed to Derleth's "Cthulhu Mythos") is not a battle between "good" and "evil," which is, to quote Derleth, "basically similar" to the Christian Mythos. No, the "Elder Gods" (mostly invented by Derleth and successors) are not powers of "good" at war with the "evil" Great Old Ones. And so on, and so forth.

Mostly, it's becoming clear to me (and Joshi points this out in the aforementioned book) that many who utilize various elements from Lovecraft's writing have never actually read Lovecraft. They've come by his "gods" and various entities and elements and fictional texts secondhand, via such wrongheaded sources as "The Call of Cthulhu" rpg or writers who followed Derleth (such as, ugh, Brian Lumley). Now, I can be very naive, I admit, and this comes as a shock to me. And I will not rp pseudo-Lovecraft. It squicks me out. But I love CoX, and pseudo-Lovecraft is everywhere...so...I don't know. Maybe I'll just drop all the HPL elements from Erzsébetta's backstory and steer clear of the silly stuff.

I don't want to be off-putting to other players, almost all of whom I've enjoyed rping with, but also can't, in good conscience, as a writer, Lovecraft devotee and HPL scholar, take part in the propagation of the bastardized ideas I've spent so much energy trying to dispel.

I imagine maybe five people who read this blog will give a give a rat's ass about all this. I just had to vent.

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Anyhow, donuts and all...

**** My thanks to

jreynolds for pointing out that Tierney's essay is, in fact, online, so it's not hard to find, and you may read it if you so desire.

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Should I post here or in my journal or send you an email? I don't want to have to spam up your LJ, but you did sorta say that I could...

I did. Post it here.

Are you going to point out how the Derleth Mythos is more amenable to roleplaying than the "nobody saves nothing" scenarios presented by genuinely Lovecraftian fiction? I've been waiting for that objection...

I've been waiting for that objection...

Maybe, but you make it sound worse than I mean it. BTW, I did read the article you posted to, and yes, all that Xtian overread is crap. Anyway, response as below.

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I think there are two things at work here, actually. One: yes, what you said here, that probably the larger majority of players in CoX (and probably in "gaming" culture in general) had their first exposure to the Mythos from secondary sources - which colored their understanding of what themes the body of work was actually dealing with. I don't actually know which one it was for myself, I think they happened relatively simultaneously - but I can say that I have read a respectable number of the HPL stories and novels (and oddly enough, I've never actually played an CoC game). So, yes, there is a lot of adulterated understanding of what "cosmic horror" is supposed to be. I'm not necessarily against that as a matter of course, because it allows more creative people to play in that sandbox, to bring out stories and tales that can be interesting and engaging. I'd never say that my lore is somehow better or more important then the original inspiration - but that's what it is - an inspiration.

This sorta leads into the second thing I think is happening with your experiences in CoX. CoX bills itself as a "Superhero MMO", which is what most of the published content is supposed to capture. However, the "actual online experience" is different than that, particularly when you get into RP with a massively-multiplayer playerbase. CoX becomes less about "superhero/villain", and more into "Comic Books" in general. There are a lot of different genres of comic books, which means that players feel free to drop in a huge, huge number of differing and occasionally conflicting genres, devices, tropes, and themes when constructing a backing narrative for their character. When you take that kind of opportunity to just run rampant with just about any fiction imaginable, you're going to come into conflict with other players who are doing the same thing.

The conflict comes up all the time in character interactions. Examples happen when two characters attempt to figure out which of them really is "the best of the best covert ninja cyborg catgirl operative with the latest bleeding edge in psycho-cyber-quantum-jello-pack underwear" or whatever. You have conflict in the individual character lore that the player has built up to establish their PC, and in order to negotiate these RP scenes and interactions, you kinda have to find a middle ground somewhere. Often times that requires hybridization of lore and genre in order to meet in the middle.

(cont'd)

(cont'd from above)

When I told you that Synge was best understood as a mortal incarnation or conduit for Derlethian Elder/Great/Earth-Gods which were opposed to the Great Old Ones/Mythos creatures (Yeah, readers, that was me who did that), it was a simplified translation of what his lore is supposed to be. I don't want to assert the primacy of Derleth's adaptation of the Mythos as being better than the HPL or CRK works or whatever. It's just a tool I used at the time in order to quickly communicate why the character goes apeshit and fuckout weird when someone mentions the Crawling Chaos in front of him. Also, it's a comic book game - dualistic moral conflicts are pretty much de rigeur for the genre. Synge says this stuff, he talks about "facts" and "well this is the way it is" because that's what he's been told during his IC education. Is it true? I dunno, very possibly, very likely it is not. Synge and Mel very well might not be channeling the power of the gods, but its what makes sense to them and how they perceive the world. I try to be accomodating with other PCs and their lore to accept it when someone says, "Okay, you might think that - but here's how my PC sees/senses the world, and here's their experience and it doesn't mesh with yours". Okay fine, that's cool. I'm going to try to apply some syncretism to the process so we can both continue to have meaningful and enjoyable RP.

In specific, I think that was what MurKat/Mel was trying to with the Elder Sign business**. With plenty of other players that kind of thing would have been accepted as a possible remedy within the lore of other PCs that we've had contact with throughout our gaming careers. Unless there was some private argument between you that I didn't see, I think she backed off from that experiment with your lore without any malice or suggestion that you had to comply with the expectation it would work. I don't think either one of us explicitly knew how close you wanted to stay to traditional HPL lore, and in hindsight we might have had a short OOC discussion of how far you wanted to go on it, or whether you wanted us meddling with Erszebetta or whatever. As far as myself or Mel/MurKat went, I think we're both more than willing to take a hit and accept failure as an outcome of RP conflicts. I also think there was some lingering OOC stuff going on with Murkat that didn't have anything with you that might have had her a bit more on edge than normal. Not sure. Might be projecting here.

Anyway, all this said; I still enjoy the RP, I hope ya keep the HPL stuff in Erszebet's story because it is interesting and engaging. I think dealing with players who do not have a strict, traditional grounding in HPL lore vs. cursory understanding and adulteration from secondary and tertiary sources going to be unavoidable. It's just going to be a matter of discussing how your PC's lore and story can interact and contribute to the stories of the other players around you, and negotiating a harmony that keeps all the good times going.

Long reply, probably won't post, but whatever.

** Which, I have to give her a break, there was no way for her to know that the Raid™ joke wasn't going to be funny to you. I thought it was lighthearted and amusing.

In part, this goes back to how I don't play well with others...but that's another post.

** Which, I have to give her a break, there was no way for her to know that the Raid™ joke wasn't going to be funny to you. I thought it was lighthearted and amusing.

Always remember, Caitlín is too serious, and her sense of humor is utterly unpredictable. I didn't take that as a joke but, basically, as stage direction, and it irked me. But I can see how, in light of the misinterpretation, it was meant as a joke.

. Also, it's a comic book game - dualistic moral conflicts are pretty much de rigeur for the genre.

Yes, I do see that...which makes Lovecraft entirely unsuited to the game. And yet there he is, and superhero comics have often, wittingly or unwittingly drawn from him. There is, I know, a tradition. That said, I happen to have landed in a VG that is much less about good vs. evil, and more about the grey. I mean, the creatures and beings that have sought refuge in the Sa are all pretty nasty. About the closest to "good" they come is in trying to keep one another safe and worrying about threats that would endanger the sanctuary (or the world, but only because they live in the world and really have no where else to go). It's a bit like Barker's Midian, I suppose. So...I think we're more DC/Vertigo, and way, way less Marvel and DC...which might make us odd...I don't have enough experience in the game to know.

It's a given that Erzsébetta can't be saved. Maybe the damage can be mitigated, but she can't be made sane or untangled. Though she's actually rather weak and not very formidable, well...you know. And yes, you guys were good sports, though Mur got sort of miffed (in a tell to me) at being told Sekhmet was so ancient, because she claims she's more ancient, and I HATE the I'm older and scarier and more powerful than you pissing matches.

Anyway, all this said; I still enjoy the RP, I hope ya keep the HPL stuff in Erszebet's story because it is interesting and engaging. I think dealing with players who do not have a strict, traditional grounding in HPL lore vs. cursory understanding and adulteration from secondary and tertiary sources going to be unavoidable. It's just going to be a matter of discussing how your PC's lore and story can interact and contribute to the stories of the other players around you, and negotiating a harmony that keeps all the good times going.

I just don't know if I can overcome my aversion, and avoidance seems the less stressful path. I don't want to waste time trying to explain what Nyarlathotep actually is (which I keep having to do), when I could be rping. Better to redact a bit and have the thing that she was made a vessel for be another dark entity that I make up from scratch. The degree to which is matter annoys me is out of all proportion with its actual importance, and I see that. But I can't negotiate a middle ground. I do it right, or I don't do it.

It doesn't help that the Phoenix Company, with whom the Sa is loosely allied, is setting up some big psuedo-Lovecraftian story, which I'm going to have to avoid at all cost, as I already got into it with one of their players over the nature of the Necronomicon.

And I especially dread the fireworks that might ensure if Erzsébetta actually were to come into contact with your groups mythos lore guy, Kinn, because I'd just...get pissy.

Edited 2010-11-04 20:36 (UTC)

In part, this goes back to how I don't play well with others...

I remember this, which is why I'm concerned that you're gonna throw up your hands and write us all off. :\

I think we're more DC/Vertigo...

Well, I think a lot of people try for the grey morality, but few people are actually able to capture it. Obviously there is a lot of inter-player push and pull toward each side of the spectrum on that. For my part, I think most of my groups are pretty much cleaving to not-exactly-grey, "gritty" characters if you look at the characters and storylines in broad strokes. However, once you get to one-on-one or small-group dynamics the stories and RPs deepen considerably from there and can start exploring darker or more unsettling or "experimental" storylines and RP. Provides some contrast to "Assemble and Fight off the Negative Space Wedgie" action-crises that players engineer, although those can be fun to fool around with.

It's a given that Erzsébetta can't be saved. Maybe the damage can be mitigated, but she can't be made sane or untangled.

Absolutely. Awesome. I like this. This is something that I say with my other PC, who is irreparably insane. I'll say this, because it's something that happens so often in the RP in this game. A lot of players/PCs will want to Fix Things, partially because it is a superpower/superhero setting - they want to be a hero and Fix the Injustice. Many players are okay with this, it is part of their PCs development that they want to be saved/fixed/redeemed, etc. It's so common that a lot of people just assume that is what is going on when a PC has an obvious character flaw or obstacle or malady. I've had to go out and tell people repeatedly on the above mentioned PC that I don't need people to fix her. That problem, that conflict, is the core of her character and it's necessary to her. Of course, they can try if they feel they have to, but I will gently ask that the efforts remain in vain. It's just about communication.

...I HATE the I'm older and scarier and more powerful than you pissing matches.

Wow, I am really surprised to hear that she started that. I must protest that kind of thing is not at all typical for her. re: Older, etc; that kind of thing is why if I am playing an immortal character (like a vampire) that they are never more than 100 years old. Very likely considerably less. And if they are "powerful" that they are playing with a considerable handicap (like being a drunk, useless slacker who lies about how much he can do).

I remember this, which is why I'm concerned that you're gonna throw up your hands and write us all off. :\

No, no, no. I'm having too much fun. And, besides, I haven't eevn eaten my hands. Someone else's maybe, but not my own.

"Assemble and Fight off the Negative Space Wedgie"

That's funny. I laughed. By the way, Sekhmet and I are actually going to create the Dracul thing as a playable mission, using the AE thingy. Or that's the plan. She just finished her first one for the Sa.

I'll say this, because it's something that happens so often in the RP in this game. A lot of players/PCs will want to Fix Things, partially because it is a superpower/superhero setting - they want to be a hero and Fix the Injustice.

Bingo. That's what I meant last night about someone being a "White Knight," and I find it utterly antithetical to rp. It's not even good in comics, most times.

Wow, I am really surprised to hear that she started that.

Well, you heard the ic stuff. As E was departing, and saying she would only, from here on, meet you within the Sa, and that you must come with humility, and that there were truly ancient things there...after that, she sent me a tell, ooc, saying this amused her, as Mur was 6,000 years old, etc. So, that's how it felt to me. Frankly, I find it an enormous problem, creating characters so ancient. There's no way a player can play them convincingly, certainly not without abandoning any pretext to sanity or rational thought (as we would recognize it). Too many players want to be gods, instead of heroes and villains. And I am so tired of everyone having special-case tainted blood. It's just stupid.

...Sekhmet and I are actually going to create the Dracul thing as a playable mission, using the AE thingy.

It is not very hard to make those player-made missions, but it can be difficult to make them well. The interface makes you jump through a lot of hoops and there's plenty of debugging that has to occur (I call it AE voodoo - the engine doesn't always dance the way you want it to). This is even crazier when you make one of those mission arcs which is expected to be run with a team. The team probably won't naturally slow down to catch every detail (so yeah, you're still going to be facing the player's need to steamroll through the mission you've carefully designed), so there will have to be some need to sort of moderate progress using RP to call attention to important details. Tedious? Fuck yeah, but after some practice you can feel more comfortable about it.

I actually have a LOT to say about the player-designed mission feature; I love the fact that it's in there, but it's an ornery old whore that works the roughest corner of the street.

Better to redact a bit and have the thing that she was made a vessel for be another dark entity that I make up from scratch.

This might be best. For myself, I have always tried to use pseudonyms for the Crawling Chaos in relation to my character's lore, just so I'm not obviously namedropping that there might be a Mythos connection (probably to avoid some of the same problems you've been encountering - preconceptions and easy associations that might not apply to your PC's lore). CoX has some possible in-game lore connections you could use, particularly the Circle of Thorns (http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Circle_of_Thorns), the Banished Pantheon (http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Banished_Pantheon), the Servants of Rularuu (http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rularuu_the_Ravager) or even the Coralax (http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Coralax).

I especially dread the fireworks...

Say no more, I was beginning to think this already before you logged off last night. I consider the guy a good RP'er and a good resource for coordinating mythos elements in a RP storyline, but I won't suggest that he knows more or better than anyone else. You two might not mesh, I couldn't say because I don't have the sensitivity to these issues that you have to know where the pitfalls and bones of contention will lay.

This might be best. For myself, I have always tried to use pseudonyms for the Crawling Chaos in relation to my character's lore, just so I'm not obviously namedropping that there might be a Mythos connection (probably to avoid some of the same problems you've been encountering - preconceptions and easy associations that might not apply to your PC's lore).

I'm going to bring this up with our VG. Not sure if the CoX lore stuff will work. Maybe.

You two might not mesh, I couldn't say because I don't have the sensitivity to these issues that you have to know where the pitfalls and bones of contention will lay.

I'd love rping with him, if he's a good rper, and if he stuck strictly to the HPL canon with no deviation into Derleth/"CoC" territory...but I know the latter is impossible to ask.

You know...it would be easy enough for me to present a set of ground rules...

No war between "Elder Gods" and Old Ones.

No elder signs acting as wards that can dispel.

No "good" and "evil."

No winning battles against Nyarlathotep, Cthulhu, etc. The very best you can do is stave off doom until later, and even then your sanity is forever damaged.

But...even just that much...no one's going to agree to go along with. Too many people can't grasp that in a battle between Cthulhu and the Justice League...well..there wouldn't be a battle...

Edited 2010-11-04 22:15 (UTC)

I'd love rping with him, if he's a good rper, and if he stuck strictly to the HPL canon with no deviation into Derleth/"CoC" territory...but I know the latter is impossible to ask.

That would be difficult to ask, but I'm not that player, so I don't know how far it would go. Thinking more about the character itself, I think there might be some conflict due to what little I know about the PC's concept from an OOC perspective (the player holds info close to the chest so I don't have the clearest idea of its scope; might help if I had actually asked at any point). Might feel this one out a bit more, or wait until you have been able to redesign Ersze's backstory.

...a battle between Cthulhu and the Justice League... well..there wouldn't be a battle...

Perhaps not, but there would be some considerable comic sales. I think DC would let you write it. ;)

I think DC would let you write it.

Even I draw the line somewhere.

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Platypus Vs. Mechaplatypus!

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