greygirlbeast: (white)
Caitlín R. Kiernan ([personal profile] greygirlbeast) wrote2008-08-02 11:41 am

The Whore's Daughter

So, here's the way I see it, and if I am wrong, someone can tell me so. You guys can either get an online journal wherein I occasionally say what I think on a diverse range of subjects not necessarily related to my writing (recently, and the cause of some strife, that Orson Scott Card is a raving homophobe, that I'll be voting for Barack Obama, and that Robert Jordan and Laurell K. Hamilton write "tripe"). OR, we have this other choice. I can keep my mouth shut, like I mostly used to do, and confine this blog to daily word counts and notices about our ongoing eBay auctions. Because you can't have it both ways. If I express my opinions —— which are often contentious, unpopular, unorthodox, whatever —— it is inevitable that I'll offend someone every few days. This morning I received a rather whiny email from someone claiming I'd hurt his feelings because of what I said about Jordan and Hamilton, and so he probably won't be buying any of my books. Night before last, one reader went ballistic in the journal comments over the fact that, while I condemn OSC's hate speech, I support the presidency of Barack Obama (seeing these two things as somehow inextricably linked). And it's true, I do not need to be alienating readers. But it's also true that when I do not give in to my tendency to be a mouthy bitch, this journal gets rather dull. So, which will it be? You want the somewhat unexpurgated me, or the utterly dull and inoffensive me? You can't say, we want you to be honest, then go off on me when you find something I say offensive. You are certainly entitled be be offended. But...this is my LJ, right? And the opinions expressed here are mine. Maybe I'll post a poll later —— reserved and inoffensive, or honest and often offensive. Let you guys decide. Right now, I'm just annoyed at the whiners who want me to know I've hurt their feelings...because, you know, I care.

I just got the news (thank you Doug Miller), via boingboing.net, that I am one of the thirty-one sf authors who will be discussed this month on the Science Fiction Message Board. Specifically, I have been assigned to August 23rd, or that day's been assigned to me, whichever. I'll post about this again nearer to the date, and here's the link to the announcement by Cory Doctorow. I was frankly amused at the person who complained about my inclusion on the list because I write "Vampire romance novels," when I've only written one vampire novel, sixteen years ago, and it wasn't very romantic.

Yesterday was an odd sort of day. A semi-day off, but at least I answered that mountain of email. Spooky baked some very yummy muffins for Lughnasadh (apple, cinnamon, walnuts, and dates). I loaded Sigur Rós' Með suð í eyrum við spilum endalaust (2008) and Gordon Bok's Seal Djiril's Hymn (1972; my thanks to Sonya for this one) onto the iPod. I took a long, cool bath. That sort of rather aimless, laid-back sort of day. We get too few of those hereabouts. About 5:30, we headed to Beavertail for an informal Lughnasadh ceremony. And here things got a little derailed, and it was likely my fault.

I've always thought that the ruins of Fort Burnside (circa 1942, built to guard the minefield that was placed in Narragansett Bay during WWII) would be a wonderful place for ritual work, especially given that the two circular depressions that each once held a 3-inch gun have an odd and striking resemblance to a megalithic site, as does the old bunker. What I failed to take into account were the nosy people. Why I failed to take this into account is beyond me, as I know well enough that humans are pathologically incapable, in general, of minding their own damn business. As Spooky was beginning to cast the circle, some swamp-yankee goombah with a camera wandered up wanting to know what we were doing. As we worked, we attracted a smallish audience (a child's shrill and repeated scream, "Mommy! What are they doing?!"). And as we were heading back to the car, a woman approached (she was out walking her dog), and she said to Spooky, "I see you two are spiritual people." Spooky stopped to talk to her. I figured she was some harmless New Ager, so I busied myself putting things away. A few minutes later, Spooky shows up, grumbling, and tells me that the woman wanted to know if we'd "...ever thought about Jesus Christ, who created the sea?" It was all Spooky could do to keep me from going after the woman, I think. I was instantly livid. I swear to fuck, I considered making an impromptu human sacrifice to Panthalassa and all the hungry crabs and fishes.

I mean, what if I stood around outside some local Xtian church on Sunday, and when they exited, annoyed the congregation members with questions like, "Have you ever thought about the Morrigan, or Dionysus, or Brighid? What if someone who was Islamic, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or what-the-hell ever did such a rude, thoughtless, arrogant thing? Sure, I know why it's so, as I was raised Catholic and Methodist, but it is truly regrettable that so many Xtians are driven to evangelize, to witness, to annoy the shit out of the rest of us with their religion, when I'd never dare do such a thing. But I don't have to be happy about it. Afterwards, I was so angry I climbed down the cliffs to the sea, to a spot where the incoming tide was especially violent, slamming itself loudly against the rocks, slinging up spray ten or fifteen feet into the air. I sat there and watched the waves and tried not to hate that woman, who seemed to feel that we have so little conviction and so little right to privacy that she could approach us and ask such a goddamn, idiotic question. Spooky was much nicer to her than I'd have been, telling her "Many things made the sea." I'd have probably said, "Yeah, we did the Jesus thing, but, turns out, pagans get better sex. And, by the way, from that sour fucking look on your face, you could probably use some." We stayed with the sea until dark, then headed back to Providence, and got sandwiches from Eastside Market for dinner.

Oh, on the way down to Beavertail, we stopped at Newbury Comics in Warwick. I went in only meaning to get the new director's cut of Alex Proyas' Dark City (1998) and the newly released Doomsday (2008). But it is an evil, seductive place, and so we also picked up the hardback of Joss Whedon's Angel: After the Fall, Vol. 1 and a limited edition book/CD thingy Nick Cave has released to accompany Dig, Lazarus, Dig. Last night, we watched the new cut of Dark City, which runs 111 minutes, versus the theatrical release of 100 minutes. But, those restored eleven minutes make an already brilliant film far less choppy, more subtle, and give it quite a bit more depth. Also, the annoying opening voice-over that was forced on Proyas by the studio has been removed. At the time of the film's original release, I was a friend of a friend of the director's (well, technically, I still am), and knew that he was very displeased with the cut, especially with the voice-over, that gives away the film's fundamental mystery in the first minute. The restored footage concerning the whore's daughter (we don't even see that she has one in the 1998 cut) and Jennifer Connelly's character singing "The Night Has a Thousand Eyes" (vocals performed by Anita Kelsey), were especially welcomed restorations. Anyway, I have always adored this film, and now I adore it even more.

Time to get back in the platypus saddle, back to work, and my thanks to Larry Roberts of Bloodletting Press for giving me a two-week extension on the introduction I agreed to write for S. T. Joshi's forthcoming Arthur Machen collection. Also, my thanks to Ernest Lilley (senior editor at SFRev) for sending me the following photos from my signing at Readercon 19. Spooky's even in most of them:





I have no idea what book I'm signing here.



Neil Clarke of Wyrm Publishing and Clarksworld Magazine on the left, and this is what happens when I try to smile. Oh, you can also see the Chiana mug Theo Black gave me.



Here I am actually signing an old copy of the long-defunct zine The Urbanite, the market to which my story "Paedomorphosis" first sold.



I love this guy, because he brought eleven books for me to sign, including ARCs.

All photos Copyright © Ernest Lilley 2008, used by permission.

Serenia Digest #32 July 2008

[identity profile] sa-jathan.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Derma Sutra (1891) -- The opening alone makes this issue worth the subscription price. It is an exquisite example of your ability to construct poetic phrases with such precision that it creates an almost dizzying effect on the reader. Not meant to be gushy but when one finishes a paragraph and immediately returns to the beginning to drink it in again, it should be noted. And the ending is perfect. I wouldn’t wish for you to constantly carry the anger you speak of in the Prolegomena but it did wonders for this piece.

The Richard Kirk interview was insightful and confirming and informative. I am eagerly anticipating the completion of “The Last Machine.” “It’s as if Alice and Dorothy wandered into a prismatic version of Innsmouth.” Indeed. This section is a wonderful addition to the digest.

“The Woman Who Was Wife to the Husband of the Sea” is indeed a “hauntingly beautiful tale.” I couldn't help having Sinead O'Connor's "Jackie" playing through my head while I read, though the song stretched significantly longer than it's recorded 2:28. It is written with the slow voice of lapping waves and shifting sands. And it compliments your work. I am picking up “Postcards From the Province of Hyphens” and “Singing Innocence and Experience” from Amazon.com this afternoon. Yes, a little late to the party but I wore a nice costume and brought Black & Tans.

[identity profile] livia-llewellyn.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
In my opinion, anyone who claims butthurt of the proportions that make it impossible for them to ever read your fiction or support your writing career again is someone who had their bare ass up in the air all along, just waiting and aching for a butthurting from anyone. Fuck them. This is your journal, and therefore by extension your home. You say whatever you want.

[identity profile] tactileson.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Not much else for me to say other than count me in on keeping the journal open and honest. Oh, and I'm sorry you accosted by a nosy Christian, and an ignorant one at that. I once had a couple of people pick up a sword that a few friends and I had been using during a ritual in the woods and start walking off with it. I had to run back and convince them to give it back to me. I can't remember what I said, though it may have had something to do performing a Masonic ritual, mumbling something about the town's Mayor being a Master Mason and promising them a lower rate on their mortgage if they didn't mention it to anybody. I was much to much a smart ass in my teen years.

[identity profile] awdrey-gore.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 07:46 pm (UTC)(link)
My two cents:

The two people you mention were spoiling for a confrontation. The person who tried to conflate disgust for OSC's homophobia as a contradiction since you support Obama was so desperately searching for a fight, and possibly the attention that riling someone with a "name" could bring her/him/it. The lack of logic and hyperbolic insult make me lean towards the idea that this person wanted attention. Those who simply want fights at least put some thought into it. Both ilk are best ignored and when ignored, they go away to find someone else more willing to play their games.

The person who sent you the e-mail is a special little snowflake, who would have ended up OMG SO OFFENDED at some point, regardless of whether or not you offer opinions on your blog. Such easily bruised people just want you to fawn over them, sending them an apologetic e-mail, begging them to come back because they are oh-so-special to you, being a reader of your works and all. Meh, feh and bah. They will drain you if you give them any attention beyond a curt, "It's unfortunate you feel that way."

None of this will ever really affect your bottom line because for every drama-hound and offended snowflake, there are at least two people like me who pre-order your books and have come to really like you, not just through your works but also through this blog. You are an eminently reasonable and polite woman - protestations of being a mouthy bitch aside - and your blog here is interesting above and beyond the access it gives your fans. It would be a net loss to the online experience if you were to stop posting honestly about the issues and ideas important to you because trolls and emotionally needy fans can't handle themselves properly.

Livejournal

[identity profile] cliff52.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I guess we're still in the pioneer days on the internet - not in building it, but in learning to use it intelligently and politely. It's just rude to contradict someone's views in their own journal, or to attempt to put them on the spot (unless that's the tone created by the journal's owner). However, this sentiment does not apply to the same extent to the journal owner - you're much more free to blast us, because it's your journal.
My analogy is the salon of the 17th/18th century - one did not disturb the host or hostess, less one not be invited back (or worse.)

[identity profile] mellawyrden.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 07:58 pm (UTC)(link)
The thing oakthorne said about lots of people being "indignation junkies" is so very, very true.

The reason people become junkies of anything is because it takes their pain away. What reaction you could possibly give that won't make them keep sniffing after you, I can't even guess. I wish I were a bit sharper mentally. I'm trying to remember, through my haze of esotericism... Jesus Christ showed up some time AFTER the sea was already created? You should have just killed that woman.

[identity profile] lomer.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm personally a fan of having an opinion. If its not the same as my opinion, that's cool. It's nice when people HAVE their own thoughts though.
sirena73: (Team Starbuck)

[personal profile] sirena73 2008-08-02 08:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I have nothing to say that won't echo all the comments above me, but I wanted to say it anyway: PLEASE keep your journal the real you. I treasure the fact that one of my absolute favorite authors allows her readers access to her world on almost a daily basis.
To sum up; fuck the haters. :)
ext_4772: (Good Omens)

[identity profile] chris-walsh.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
First off: Keep up the good work and don't let the bastards grind you down.

Now I get long-winded.

Offensiveness is overrated. Being offended is overrated. I try to avoid being offended; I hate the energy it takes, and as I'm frequently a fretter I know about energy-sucks like that. And growing up around a spectacular array of funny smartasses helped me realize that hey, I don't want to waste time and energy being angry and offended! It's more fun being a smartass! (My dad is also a fretter; he can stew. Mom is good at not stewing and helping Dad get out of a stewing rut by being funny with him. That's a skill I've tried to cultivate.)

That said, I often write my online comments very carefully, out of caution and a desire to be precise. I hear my inner editor saying Am I being fair? Did I mishear anything? Am I replying to what the person said, or to what I think the person said? I'm sometimes too cautious, but I'm glad that I think before hitting POST COMMENT. (I learned a lot about that caution from 2003 to 2005 when I'd post on your former board.) And when I made comments related to OSC recently, I really thought those thoughts, as I processed why his column made me so angry. (And by the way? When I'm angry, I'm a LOT LESS FUNNY. Another incentive not to be angry!)

I remember, thanks to reading Harlan Ellison's Watching, when Harlan had the opposite problem: people compelled to tell him they liked his movie reviews even when they disagreed with his opinions. I thought his reply was priceless (approx. quote): "You don't agree with everything I've said in these columns? Hell, I don't agree with everything I've said in these columns! You find someone who's agreed with every lunatic position I've ever taken, some of which I took just to piss people off, I'll show you someone who took re-entry at too steep an angle." Agreeing isn't the point (and I've disagreed plenty with my online acquaintances); it's trust that people are being as honest as they can, and that I still like them when they're honest. LJ is good for revealing character, as we throw so many of our thoughts and words out in cyberspace, and I don't want you to do that less because people are choosing to be offended. It is a choice. I like my choice. I hope I can live up to it.

Keep revealing your character, to whatever extent you find comfortable.
ext_83: (rant)

[identity profile] joecrow.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I can keep my mouth shut, like I mostly used to do, and confine this blog to daily word counts and notices about our ongoing eBay auctions.

Fuck THAT noise. I read your journal because I'm interested in what you've got to say, because you're an interesting and unique writer and person who sees things differently, and says things I don't expect. If folks don't want to read things that surprise them, then they can fuck right off. It's your journal.

[identity profile] cucumberseed.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
That sounds exhausting. The whole lot of it.

[identity profile] goreyhaus.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 09:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I vote, 100%, for the honest, open, opinionated blog because that's why I read your entries. {I read them for the updates on your work too, but where else than a forum like this can a reader get to know the other thoughts and life of a writer?}

I am always amazed by the 'net whiners and appalled by their sheer nerve to write such complaints, particularly in the context of their own feelings. Paleez. It makes me wonder if they are so fragile that they take everything they encounter so personally?

Please employ the 'delete' button on people and posts like those and keep giving us little glimpses of you.

Nice pics too. Hope today's a better day, with more beach time and no chatty religious buffoons...I know it's unkind of me, but whenever I have a run-in with a religious idiot like the one Spooky spoke to, I wish that person a crisis of faith. I'd like them to have a moment of other-viewpoint-clarity so that they can see the shoe on the other foot and thereby see what an incredible ass they've been.

[identity profile] shartyrant.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 10:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't waded through the comments yet to see how the conversation on this is going, but I say write what you want. It's your blog. Course, I agree with most of what you say that offends so take that for what you will. If anything, your blog brings up some topics that maybe those readers that got offended hadn't ever thought about before. Maybe they might go and *gasp* educate themselves about the topic. Can't hurt.

I never understood how the hell a reader can get so offended because of what one author believes about another writer. As long as you aren't going and physically damaging or killing Jordan and Hamilton, what does it matter what you think of their writing? Not all readers agree about who is good and who isn't. What a boring world it would be if everyone did. If you don't like their work and if I did, I would just shrug it off and go on. I don't think you have to like everything an author likes to be able to enjoy their stories.

Ah hell, I doubt I'm making sense. Too little sleep and the brain is hurting from a bad combination of that and headache from the coming storm. I just hope you do keep writing your blog uncensored as it would be boring if it is just page counts (though that is interesting in its own way). I hate to see you chased off because of a few whiners.

[identity profile] shartyrant.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 10:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Another author's blog I follow had some problems with the fact that she was writing about a possible homosexual story in the works, but had been writing YA. The editor/agent ect. all got upset because teens and parents that read her YA work would find it offensive that she thought homosexuals were just people to. She was told to censor her blog by them for the chance of not offending her readers. She went the middle road after asking people's thoughts on it and just took the journal friend-locked. She uses another blog to do the promo and page count stuff. Anything that just might be offensive go to the friend-locked in the hopes that since it isn't commonly known about her blog, that the easily offended readers or potentials won't see it.

So I guess the choice is do you let a minority of your (potential) readers control your blog or do you just present yourself in all your glory? Or you go with the third option that the author above did?

I still don't get why people have to agree with everything that an author says to read them. Part of the pleasure of reading is getting exposed to other viewpoints or ideas that you wouldn't have before.

Okay. I'll leave you alone now as I am sure I took up enough space.

[identity profile] robyn-ma.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I am offended that you were offended by people who were offended.

That is to say, I am offended on your behalf by the people who were offended by you. I am offended that they were offended. I am offended that you had to be offended by their complaints that you had offended them.

All this offendedness, and there wasn't even any nudity. I am offended anew.

[identity profile] v1ewfr0mbugtown.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 11:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Caitlin,

I rarely write to you, but I read your journal everyday and agree with everyone that you should remain candid and honest in your opinions here in the journal, it is greatly appreciated.

About offence: I receive Sirenia Digest and remember when you were worried about publishing 'About Attrition and Severance.' The way you described it I wondered if you would finally manage to offend me. But I had faith in your writing ability and read what turned out to be one of my favorite stories by you…it absolutely blew me away, I had to read it through twice! (I’m only sorry I said nothing earlier.)

The latest issue of Sirenia is beautiful. A true gem. The art and interview and Sonya’s tale fit together like they were destined to be. 'Derma Sutra' was positively compelling and baroque, thank you! (What a beautiful and just reward for backward Christians…) You have such an uncanny ability to build scene and character that you always leave me amazed and wanting more.

In the end, do not change your style for the offended few, remain true to yourself--we like you that way! Thanks for your writing, I look forward to it all.

[identity profile] mataar.livejournal.com 2008-08-02 11:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Please continue with the honest stuff! This is the only LJ I read, and it's only made me love your writing more. Haven't ever posted before, but would hate to see you switch to a censored journal. I've much enjoyed all your books and continue giving them to all the readers I know. Seems like the disgruntled posters should find some other venue for their ranting.

P.S. The latest SD is wonderful. Thank you!

dunno if u r serious i hope not

[identity profile] smallpinkfish.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 01:27 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry to say it, but regardless of all opinions, we're all on the same page (yours). Even though it sounds like your day was annoying, your sense of humor made mine.

[identity profile] toruokada.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 02:29 am (UTC)(link)
I'm a long-time reader of the blog who's glad that you so often show your hand. While your views are not always mine--I'm a Catholic who, at one point, gobbled down William F. Buckley essays--I respect those views, and absolutely encourage you to keep making them public.

Given that--that this is a public venue, and that you allow comments--you'll inevitably hear from those who disagree with you (some of them calm, and some of them batty).

Your journal has often struck me as confessional; I remember Joyce Carol Oates' title MY HEART LAID BARE. Surely this applies here. I commend your honesty, and advise people outraged by your writing to go read someone safer.

[identity profile] nuwishas-tail.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 02:49 am (UTC)(link)
on the topic of lughnasadh, we observe the roving cross-quarter dates, which comes across as this coming Thursday, and it will be a very fitting imbolc for me, as my first child will be due the next day.

new beginings, new life, the quickening of Spring!

[identity profile] siouxdivision.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 02:49 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for the information on the new version of Dark City. I love that movie, and I definitely need to watch it again. I also must see Doomsday, for Marshall's The Descent has become one of my favorite movies.

As for sharing your opinions on topics others might consider controversial--well, if someone is offended by what you say, then let him or her be offended. I read the comments you mentioned in this post--the ones about Barack Obama and Orson Scott Card--and was put off by the commenter's rudeness. This person is a perfect example of why I don't allow people to comment on my blog.

[identity profile] brigidsblest.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 03:54 am (UTC)(link)
that Orson Scott Card is a raving homophobe, that I'll be voting for Barack Obama, and that Robert Jordan and Laurell K. Hamilton write "tripe").

*puzzled* None of those things is offensive. Well, okay, not to me.

Methinks some people are too eager to get their panties in a wad over the least little things.

[identity profile] kalamah.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 04:12 am (UTC)(link)
A. Fine photos -- you two are so lovely.

B. People suck.

C. Let the human sacrifices begin!

[identity profile] ulffriend.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been a bit behind and am just reading this, but: if someone doesn't like what you have to say, they don't have to read the journal. Your journal, your opinion. And that isn't really what your art is about except to the degree that you choose to insert your opinions into your work. Example: My uncle was a pilot in Vietnam when Jane Fonda pulled her little stunt over there. I never respected the woman's choices. But I think that she is a talented actress and those choices haven't stopped me from enjoying her work.

And regarding the "witnessing" at the beach, amazes me that some people believe that the strength of their personal beliefs give them the right to do things that they themselves would find appalling under difference circumstances. If I pray, when I pray, it's usually that the great Whatever protect me from people who "know better."

[identity profile] loki1978de.livejournal.com 2008-08-03 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
It's your journal. And the people who like it, like it exactly because you are like you are. Your loyal readers maybe even less like you to change anything than you yourself.
Less than a handful of singular voices where whining. Not an impressiv uproar of thousands of shocked fans. These don't count.
My vote is that your LJ stays as funny, informative, thought provoking, educating and DIFFERENT as it is.

Hmm i would recommend keeping any religious ritual out of sight. Even of the locally accepted one. You always risk that a passerby disturbs/is offended. But then again, if people where nice, they wouldn't stand and look. No blame on you that you forgot thinking about possible passerbys.
What i don't understand is any religion's urge, or better, a few fanatic practitioners', that you can find in any religion, urge to be a missionary. Missionarys died out. These days, if you want information about a religon, to see if you would like to convert, you can use various media, the internet to start with, to get informed. We don't need people going up to us and ask "Hey have you heard about [insert name of religion]?"

You look great on these photos. I would never try to bother an author at a signing with 11 books and expect to still get loved too! The highest number of books i ever had was 4. That guy was so surprised and happy. My books where TPB that where older than me (are my dad's) and signing them was a pleasant and fun trip down memory lane for him

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